I tend to define trolls a bit softer than most, and like you, tend to focus on whether they are trying to lend something to the conversation (sans name-calling and petty insults). Criticism is healthy; cynicism not so much.

Mixing marketing and social media is not so bad, but almost everything has it’s place. Marketers attempting to faux friend everyone seems a bit much to me (worse than more blatant acts of self promotion) because they are harder to turn off.

For example, a company blog that is all sell, sell, sell, probably won’t gain much traction whereas one sharing industry insights might. Likewise, a marketing rep. in a social network might not work very well; but a social network member who also happens to be an online marketing rep. might.

Mostly, it seems to me people are best served online when they act the same as they do off line. Most of won’t break into a sales pitch on the elevator ride or in a store when we’re shopping for someone’s birthday. So why do it online?

All my best,
Rich

Rich Beckers last blog post..Thinking Internal: Watson Wyatt Study

I agree with most of how your troll sees things! (Maybe because I am pretty darned old-school–I realized the other day that I’ve been doing online community since 1989. Holy cow I am old.) But I’m also genuinely appalled at some of the mean-spirited behavior I’ve seen from the old-school Stumblers. I know from experience how weird it is when the whole world discovers what had always been your little private sandbox, but it’s not cool to be horrible about it.

Then again, my tag line on Technorati is “Does marketing have to be stupid and evil?” (and the answer to that is no, for those who are wondering), so maybe I straddle a weird line. Wouldn’t be the first time.

Sonia Simone’s last blog post..Just Say No to Crap

Tagging and categorizing itself is a big usability issue. As a result many posts get skewed into the wrong direction inherently (without any wrong doing).

Many of those platform fail to react properly to the fact that they have become much more popular and attract ever more diverse participants.

You are absolutely on the right track, Wendy, when call for “allow everyone to tag as they think”.

Usability Rule #1 in that context: Let people type in whatever they feel like, and let the machine make sense of it. No fancy rules, no rigid structures, … offer guidance.

Del.icio.us does a wonderful job when it comes to tagging.

You see there is an inherent problem even without any spamming.

Tags *should* be a personal thing. I have a tag entitled “digits-digitized-work* and to make it into this tag, I would had to have made a piece of *art* or something for something I reviewed or even something standing alone that I made. [I expect NO ONE to subscribe to this tag. It's mine.]

There *are,* however, guidelines for Topics/Categories which are/can be different than tags. It’s what SU is founded upon: appropriate categorization.

When we sign up for SU we let SU know what topics we’re interested in. If I have signed up for the topic: Business and Internet…I am going to get pages in the Categories Business and Internet [as it should be].

However.

If the angry people -and I have seen it with posts – decide to use the SU “Is this topic wrong? Report it.” …and then report it as “Mental Health” or “AIDS” or whatever…with additional tags: AIDS, tw*t, cU*t, etc…well that does disservice to the community.

And yes. I have seen people discover some site and maybe not even pay attention to the category. [In this instance, sometimes SU will take keywords or the category of the domain and apply it.] But then I see people taking their anger out on the author of the post.

Again…as SU grows and goes mainstream, changes will need to be implemented. I see in the future, along with Miscatters [who exist today to change 'bad' categories back to more appropriate ones], certain criteria of SU members, that when gone below, will render the SU member unable to change categories once the intial category has been chosen.

It’s just a matter of time.

PS. Here’s a tip too. Continue changing it back to the appropriate category. The trolls will tire of the post, moving onto another one and [the 'good'.'appropriate' one] will eventually stick.

The tagging issue is one that actually really bothers me. Here are my points of contention:

Most people, not just marketers, can’t control what category a story gets submitted to – but the anger is directed at the author of the story, not the submitter.

Categories and tags are abused just as much by the true trolls as by spammers. My post mentioned in the article that was recategorized to AIDS started out in marketing or blogs. Either category would have been appropriate, but it was vandalized and retagged nonetheless.

Tags and categories can be very subjective – tags for this post alone could be ‘community, blogging, social media, mental health, anger management, SU, business, marketing, or spam’. Any of them would be appropriate – but these trolls attack when someone else doesn’t agree with how *they* would categorize it.

For the record, “Search” is already a category on SU – but because this angry community doesn’t really understand what SEO is or what it does, they think a lot of stuff should go into this category that shouldn’t. I believe only articles about search marketing should go into the “Search” category.

Tagging is something that should stay inherently personal. True spam aside, it begins to cross over lines of freedom of speech. If I want to tag an article for my own use on SU, I should be allowed to do that.

And unless the trolls want to give up their right to tag me as “AIDS, c*nt, tw*t, blogwhore, and a bi*tch”, then I shouldn’t have to give in to their demands that I tag things the way they want me to tag them (like I would be able to read their minds, anyway!).

Now this is more theory than practice, because I don’t use tags very much on SU. But I also should have the right to use them however I see fit, as long as they are relevant to the story. But even that is a fuzzy line, because let’s say I read a story that reminds me of a relative that died of cancer. I have the right to tag that as ‘cancer’, even if cancer isn’t mentioned in the story.

This is because SU isn’t just a social site, it’s also a personal tool that people should be able to use as they so desire. Again, *true spam aside* in the context of these points.

I see I’ve written way too much here and need to write another post about it. I’ll do that this week.

Coming from the SU perspective – and as someone, also, who makes her living from the internet but not really crossing my business life into SU I can see the perspective of the old SU users.

Basically, SU *used* to be for geeks. Seriously. It used to be non mainstream. So when it does as all good things do, began moving into mainstream…an infiltration occurred.

As a result, e-businesses, e-promoters, and [alas] spammers have realized the value of SU.

Old school users are frustrated with this because, to them, were it not for the e-businesses coming into SU…there would be no spam and no marketing and no solicitations for ads, for clicks, for audiences.

We’d still be looking at our art, talking politics, finding weirdness, sharing oddities and so forth.

So here we are. Social media. AND the backlash against anything that makes money where SU is an instrument to that cause.

UNFortunately this means that even non-spammers can be targets of ire and wrath because *this website* for example is perceived as part of the problem.

This is where some spam-fighters do battle with each other.

Personally. I think 90% of it could be resolved with SU categories entitled e-business and SEO.

This sentence stands out for me. Your post offers helpful advice and guidance on how to participate in a community, instead of networking to sell, online.

One way to mix marketing and social media is to become known as a subject matter expert who helps out whenever and wherever you can. I love answering marketing/PR questions and tracking down information; this approach works for me.

Barbara Rozgonyi, Wired PR Works’s last blog post..PR Friendly Index for February 2008 | WPRW at 61

I observed in many alike cases (even though propably on a smaller scale) that the most active parties on both sides are actually those, who contribute the least value to society as a whole (not just that particuar platform). And they are ignorant, too.

Value contributing folks like ourself are victims caught in the middle. It’s always of benefit trying to understand the other party. Well done.

John

John W. Furst’s last blog post..Google Everywhere – Even More In The Future

@Yi-Hui – Don’t sweat it. Really. Stumblers can always hide the negative reviews that don’t make sense. It’s YOUR SU page for crimony… And like Wendy says…people disagree.

I got a negative comment – my first ever – on my SU blog after 4 years. AFTER 4 years of stumbling!

You’ll never believe why. This nutter-ball *disagreed* with my review of Attention Deficit Disorder. I *have* ADD and I treat it like a joke. My friend, who seriously delves into ADD and has renamed it A.C.E. {Abundant Creativity Effect] had this new article and I commented on it, offerin gpraise and so forth.

So instead of thumbing down the article and writing her say…she thumbed *me* down with some strange off the wall comments.

I hid it.

Not because I was ashamed or embarrassed per se. But because it did not deserve air time on my SU Review page. She was clearly confused as to the SU mechanics.

I run the Sp@m-Free forum on Stumble and I am proud of the good and the awareness it brings.

I also have empathy for the members who, frustrated beyond belief, feel little recourse is available but to go nuts in their reviews of people – attacking them personally. [I am very proud of Mike for how he reviewed you Wendy and VERY glad it turned out well.]

As long as communication is opened I believe we all have a chance at existing with all sorts of people in peace.

Some people despise what SEO has turned into. I am one of them although the paradox is I am SEO. [White hat si'l vous plait.]

And what this means is that tempers are on edge and unfortunately someone will be at the other end of the screen when the last straw has been broken for the day.

Wendy. Good article. Honest. In-depth. I appreciate the time you took here. Thanks.

Love, Digits

Yi Hui@The Simple Wealth’s last blog post..Six reasons not to rush your baby to emergency room

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You saw yourself in the solution, kudos for that
“D”

Making Sales Making Money’s last blog post..The Secret of Work Not Really Being Work

Thank you for being such a good example of what we need more in the world of these days – seeing the people behind the issue and taking some time to be proactive instead of reactive.

That is probably the most valuable lesson for us as we adjust to our new instant digital world.

Jan’s last blog post..Simplify Your Life for Results – and a lot less headaches…Podcast #4

Re marketing- I believe if like your blog you add value and enhance peoples experiences they will look to your for leadership etc and from that can come sales.

I did not know that the word “troll” has different definitions. And I agree that you should show up as a person, not as a marketer. That approach probably make people shut off their ears in the very beginning anyway.

Kelvin Kao’s last blog post..Seamus and Magellan – Day 1